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TOPIC: Defense attribute

Defense attribute 2 months 1 week ago #9582


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Marcus,

I feel Rainbow Skies is a superior game (from what I've played) to Rainbow Moon in just about every way except for a couple of glaring issues. One of them is something I won't go into, as I know it is out of your control, but an aspect that should have been implemented on release (or very soon after). But the other one is the Defense attribute.

From what I recall you had said on the issue with how Defense works in RS is with the raising of the battle rank, it really mitigates the bonus you gain from raising your Defense. Whether through Defense potions, the Protection skill or just raising your Defense stat in general (Upgrade).

I cannot recall the formula you said on Discord (on why Defense becomes less beneficial with a higher battle rank), but please tell me at least there is some point of raising your Defense? I have heard that "there is almost no difference in having a 0 Defense compared to one that is maxed". Please tell me that is not the case. Please tell me that raising my Defense (in the upgrade menu) is not a meaningless endeavor, or buying the book for the Protection skill, and raising it, does benefit you eventually?

I mean if Defense was something that 'never' was useful, even through post-game, you would have noticed this in playtesting (which I know you did an extensive amount of) and fixed it, correct?
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Defense attribute 2 months 1 week ago #9585


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Hi Hobbun,

upgrading defense is not useless! Especially in the end game, it plays a very big role if you play on higher battle ranks.

For the main game it also has an effect, but if you increase the battle rank, then speed, strength and luck have bigger impacts on gameplay, so I would recommend to focus on this order. If you play on 1 star battle rank, defense has pretty much the same effect as in Rainbow Moon.

Why is that? If you increase the battle rank, the attributes of all monsters are upscaled. It's the same system as the difficulty in Rainbow Moon, except that upscaling factors go far beyond the limits of Rainbow Moon, which had a fixed upscale of ~50% on hard difficulty.

For example, if there are two units which are even and both have a defense and attack value of let's say 100. On normal difficulty (1 star battle rank) it behaves the same way as Rainbow Moon. For every attack, the game compares the strength value of the attacker with the defense value of the defender.

If both values are the same, no bonus or malus is performed. If the defense value is higher than the strength value, damage will be reduced. If the defense value is lower than the strength value, damage will be increased.

Think of it as a scale. You put one value on the left scale pan and the other on the right scale pan. If the difference between both values is low, then the scale moves a little bit into one direction, but not too much. That's where the battle rank comes into play. Because the upscale factors can get very large, it is possible, that the 100 base attack are upscaled to 5,000. Now think back to the scale. If you put 5,000 on the left pan and 100 on the right pan, it doesn't make a big difference if there are 100 or 150 on the right pan. You get my point? That doesn't mean the additional 50 are ignored, but because the weight on the left pan is so much heavier, the effect of the upgrade gets lowered.

So why didn't we fix this issue when defense becomes unimportant eventually? The answer is, we did. When you reach a certain treshold, defense is getting boosted too on higher battle ranks. So, it makes a tremendous differece if your defence is on cap or not if you play on the highest battle rank in the endgame. Once you've reached this point, you'll see and agree. It's hardly possible to survive, without upgrading defense.

There is another reason, why defense must not become too important. Think back of the scale. If it would be possible, to keep up with the strength value of the attacker by upgrading defense, in fact you would be able to compensate any damage. That means, higher battle ranks wouldn't make sense any more. If you can tank any damage, there's no challenge at all.

I could write much more, but I hope this covers the most important aspects and helps understanding how the system works.
Best regards,
Marcus
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Defense attribute 2 months 1 week ago #9587


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Marcus,

Thank you once again for a detailed and very informative response. But as usual, I do have a couple of questions to your reply.

I completely understand where you are coming from with your scale analogy. In raising the Battle Rank much higher than the standard number (battle rank 1) will increase the monsters Strength attribute exponentially, where our Defense increase is nowhere near as much, so our protection becomes almost non-existent and is very much lop-sided in the monsters favor (on damage).

That does make sense, but why don’t the other attributes have this problem? Like with Strength and Speed? It is harped on over and over how important it is to raise Strength and Speed first, how big of a difference it makes. Even raising them incrementally. And I agree, raising them DOES make a big difference. But how come Strength and Speed are able to be useful all the way through the game (all battle ranks), unlike Defense? Is it because the monsters Strength increases much more exponentially, when raising battle ranks, compared to their other attributes?

Also, I have to say I am a bit confused with this portion:
SideQuestStudios wrote:
When you reach a certain treshold, defense is getting boosted too on higher battle ranks. So, it makes a tremendous differece if your defence is on cap or not if you play on the highest battle rank in the endgame. Once you've reached this point, you'll see and agree. It's hardly possible to survive, without upgrading defense.

Are you saying our character’s Defense is being boosted once we reach a certain threshold? Threshold as in certain battle rank? Certain point in the game? Is this a Defense boost we see in our score, or is it invisible, like the boost Food gives us?

So you are saying due to this (invisible?) Defense boost (at a certain threshold), us raising (and capping) our Defense makes a big difference in post-game? How so? What is the interaction of this Defense boost (at a certain threshold) along with us doing so manually (i.e., via through Upgrade menu). I guess this part is just very murky to me.

And in regards to your comment of “why Defense must not become too important” from negating the difficulty. But that is just part of the challenge of balancing the game, as you well know. And extensive playtesting to find that right balance. You definitely don’t want to go too far in making Defense not as useful, either (which happens at least earlier on and up to where I am now). I am going to take your word on that it becomes more vital later on as you’ve always been straightforward with me. :)
Last Edit: 2 months 1 week ago by Hobbun.
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Defense attribute 2 months 1 week ago #9592


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Hi Hobbun,
Hobbun wrote:
That does make sense, but why don’t the other attributes have this problem? Like with Strength and Speed? It is harped on over and over how important it is to raise Strength and Speed first, how big of a difference it makes. Even raising them incrementally. And I agree, raising them DOES make a big difference. But how come Strength and Speed are able to be useful all the way through the game (all battle ranks), unlike Defense? Is it because the monsters Strength increases much more exponentially, when raising battle ranks, compared to their other attributes?

Characters and ally monsters have a lot of upgrade potential while enemy monsters only have their stats that are scaled up. Players however can use many additional mechanisms to boost their stats. Think of equipment, crafting, permanent boost items, the upgrade menu and more. That's why players can keep up with such high numbers.

If you play on normal battle rank, it is not required to max out your capabilities on each level, because monsters are not that hard. That's one reason why you can progress quickly on normal battle rank.

Regarding defense, this attribute is lower in general in Rainbow Skies. This applies for monsters too. If a monster would have an extremely high defense on high battle ranks, you could hardly make any damage.

Hobbun wrote:
Also, I have to say I am a bit confused with this portion:
SideQuestStudios wrote:
When you reach a certain treshold, defense is getting boosted too on higher battle ranks. So, it makes a tremendous differece if your defence is on cap or not if you play on the highest battle rank in the endgame. Once you've reached this point, you'll see and agree. It's hardly possible to survive, without upgrading defense.

Are you saying our character’s Defense is being boosted once we reach a certain threshold? Threshold as in certain battle rank? Certain point in the game? Is this a Defense boost we see in our score, or is it invisible, like the boost Food gives us?


Yes, No, No, No, Yes. The defense attribute is boosted once the attribute exceeds a treshold. (It usually doesn't happen in the main game, and that's how it is balanced).

It is not reflected in the UI but you will clearly see the effects that defense is becoming important when you're above this treshold.

Hobbun wrote:
So you are saying due to this (invisible?) Defense boost (at a certain threshold), us raising (and capping) our Defense makes a big difference in post-game? How so? What is the interaction of this Defense boost (at a certain threshold) along with us doing so manually (i.e., via through Upgrade menu). I guess this part is just very murky to me.

You now understand why the effects of defense are getting lower, as higher the battle rank goes. Without a compensation it would has been pretty much useless in the endgame. That's why defense are scaled up in a similar way than the monster attributes. The reason is, all player attributes are capped to 9,999. However if a monsters strength is getting into millions, 9,999 is just too low, to make a difference. So, the "boosted" player defense can reach serveral 100,000 points and therefore plays a big role in reducing damage.

Hobbun wrote:
And in regards to your comment of “why Defense must not become too important” from negating the difficulty. But that is just part of the challenge of balancing the game, as you well know. And extensive playtesting to find that right balance. You definitely don’t want to go too far in making Defense not as useful, either (which happens at least earlier on and up to where I am now). I am going to take your word on that it becomes more vital later on as you’ve always been straightforward with me. :)

Balancing was a tough part in this game, because there is such a high gap between battle rank 1 and 9. But there are many mechanisms that make sure, that the game is always playable well and the defense adjustment is just one of them.

Regarding the main game, defense never becomes meaningless. It's just that the effect is not that big compared to other attributes, but that's by design. If you could keep up with defense, you could tank any damage. So, by maximising the defense, you can at least lower the damage a little bit and that's what it's for. Having a high defense value makes especially a big difference if:

* you are using defense boosts, like boosts that increase your defense by 50%. If your base defense is 100, then the boosted defense is 150 but if your base defense is 200 then the boosted defense is 300 and that is definitve something you'll notice.
* you play battles with a defense+ bonus.
* if you get damage while you're in defend mode. Check your stats while you're in defend mode and you'll see how high it goes.

Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Marcus
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Defense attribute 2 months 1 week ago #9595


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Marcus, as always, thanks for your informative reply.
SideQuestStudios wrote:
Hi Hobbun,
Characters and ally monsters have a lot of upgrade potential while enemy monsters only have their stats that are scaled up. Players however can use many additional mechanisms to boost their stats. Think of equipment, crafting, permanent boost items, the upgrade menu and more. That's why players can keep up with such high numbers.

If you play on normal battle rank, it is not required to max out your capabilities on each level, because monsters are not that hard. That's one reason why you can progress quickly on normal battle rank.

Regarding defense, this attribute is lower in general in Rainbow Skies. This applies for monsters too. If a monster would have an extremely high defense on high battle ranks, you could hardly make any damage.

I guess I didn't make my question clear enough. I wasn't so much asking on how Speed and Strength were able to be raised so effectively, I understand the mechanics (and options) the players have on raising them over the static numbers the monsters have. I was just using those attributes as a comparison to Defense. Where Speed and Strength are very beneficial to raise throughout the entire game, including all battle ranks. Where with Defense, it isn't something, as you indicated, you really notice until later in the game.

I was asking why there such a difference on why Defense worked so differently compared to Strength and Speed. Why doesn't Strength and Speed suffer from the same issue as Defense does in not noticing a benefit earlier on?
SideQuestStudios wrote:
You now understand why the effects of defense are getting lower, as higher the battle rank goes. Without a compensation it would has been pretty much useless in the endgame. That's why defense are scaled up in a similar way than the monster attributes. The reason is, all player attributes are capped to 9,999. However if a monsters strength is getting into millions, 9,999 is just too low, to make a difference. So, the "boosted" player defense can reach serveral 100,000 points and therefore plays a big role in reducing damage.

Ok, this makes sense now. I didn't realize the monsters stats got to be so high (I am guessing in post-game). This goes back to your scale analogy. Even with a 9,999 max Defense stat, a monster with a 1,000,000 Strength will still tear through your Defense. So you need that Defense 'boost'.
SideQuestStudios wrote:
Balancing was a tough part in this game, because there is such a high gap between battle rank 1 and 9. But there are many mechanisms that make sure, that the game is always playable well and the defense adjustment is just one of them.

Regarding the main game, defense never becomes meaningless. It's just that the effect is not that big compared to other attributes, but that's by design. If you could keep up with defense, you could tank any damage. So, by maximising the defense, you can at least lower the damage a little bit and that's what it's for. Having a high defense value makes especially a big difference if:

* you are using defense boosts, like boosts that increase your defense by 50%. If your base defense is 100, then the boosted defense is 150 but if your base defense is 200 then the boosted defense is 300 and that is definitve something you'll notice.
* you play battles with a defense+ bonus.
* if you get damage while you're in defend mode. Check your stats while you're in defend mode and you'll see how high it goes.

Hope that helps.

Yes, I can understand how that would be tough in trying to balance the game to make it fun for those who not only want to play the easiest battle rank, but also rank 9.

Looks like you saw my post before it edited. ;) That’s why I changed ‘meaningless’ to ‘not as useful earlier on’ (or I should have said not as noticeable earlier on). Honestly for me, the jury is still out for how noticeable is later on, as I am still early on (relatively speaking). I think my highest Defense score is in the 90s.

However, for others I’ve talked to on the subject (on Discord), they have indicated that Defense still is not a noticeable change, even into the post-game, so that was one of the purposes of my post. But in your defense (no pun intended), there have been times when my armor has been removed from those pesky Ghost monsters and I have definitely noticed the difference in damage I’ve taken. So I look forward to getting to post-game and seeing for myself.

In regards to using the Defend option, that actually changes the stat of your defense? You can see it in the UI? I thought that was an invisible boost, similar to what food gave you. I will need to look at that when I play next. If it actually boosts the number of your Defense, that’s a huge difference in how much you need to raise your Defense, because using Defend is definitely a noticeable difference in damage taken, no matter what level/battle rank you are.
Last Edit: 2 months 1 week ago by Hobbun.
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Defense attribute 2 months 4 days ago #9599


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Hobbun wrote:
I guess I didn't make my question clear enough. I wasn't so much asking on how Speed and Strength were able to be raised so effectively, I understand the mechanics (and options) the players have on raising them over the static numbers the monsters have. I was just using those attributes as a comparison to Defense. Where Speed and Strength are very beneficial to raise throughout the entire game, including all battle ranks. Where with Defense, it isn't something, as you indicated, you really notice until later in the game.

I was asking why there such a difference on why Defense worked so differently compared to Strength and Speed. Why doesn't Strength and Speed suffer from the same issue as Defense does in not noticing a benefit earlier on?

Defense is not handled in a different way. As explained in previous posts, the effect is just lower compared to the other attributes, especially on higher battle ranks, which is by design.

Hobbun wrote:
However, for others I’ve talked to on the subject (on Discord), they have indicated that Defense still is not a noticeable change, even into the post-game, so that was one of the purposes of my post. But in your defense (no pun intended), there have been times when my armor has been removed from those pesky Ghost monsters and I have definitely noticed the difference in damage I’ve taken. So I look forward to getting to post-game and seeing for myself.

That's not true. While info from other players are usually a big help, they may not always be 100% correct. Maybe they just didn't notice and try.

Hobbun wrote:
In regards to using the Defend option, that actually changes the stat of your defense? You can see it in the UI? I thought that was an invisible boost, similar to what food gave you. I will need to look at that when I play next. If it actually boosts the number of your Defense, that’s a huge difference in how much you need to raise your Defense, because using Defend is definitely a noticeable difference in damage taken, no matter what level/battle rank you are.

Sure, if a character defends, the defense attribute gets boosted too. Check the status page to see the effects. Of course you cannot open the status page from the characters who is defending, but you can open the page for any other character and then just switch to the character that defends.

Hope that helps.
Best regards,
Marcus
Last Edit: 2 months 3 days ago by SideQuestStudios.
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